the munchkin wrangler.

For cheap(er) but adequate snows look for the Winterforce brand as a lot of retailers around here seem to stock them. If you can afford better get Nokian Hak's.

While I like the general direction you’re coming from it’s important to realize that guns are not magic talismans, just because someone possesses one does not make them invincible and just because someone doesn’t possess one does not make them helpless. “Tacticality” (not the Skunk kind) is vastly more important than hardware, someone who is a smooth operator will be able to take out an AK wielding idiot with a pen.

"“Tacticality” (not the Skunk kind) is vastly more important than hardware, someone who is a smooth operator will be able to take out an AK wielding idiot with a pen."

I hope that's just an attempt to use hyperbole to ram home a point. Otherwise that's about the silliest thing Ive' read in a longtime.

While a gun is not a magic talisman, it is a useful tool when confronted by another gun-weilding individual. You're chances of survival are much better with a gun.

Tactics aer important but so is having the tools to implement those tactics as well as being trained in tactics.

"A man is no more armed because he owns a gun than he is a musician because he has a guitar." -Col. Cooper (IIRC)

1.Mindset
2.Skills
3.Hardware

A member of our ccw bulletin board learned the hard way that it takes all three:

http://joemerchant24.blogspot.com/2007/12/firsthand-accout-of-von-maur-shooting.html

Jim,

I once chatted with a cop who told me about how he and his partner went into a department store at night after someone tripped the silent alarm, the BG snuck up behind them with a 9mm and took a few shots, and fortunately missed. The cop said to me “I had my AR carbine and my partner had the shotgun, he probably saw how outgunned he was and that’s what made him take off”.

He doesn’t know how lucky he was, and unfortunately he exemplifies the gun worship I so often see on gun boards. If a guy is sneaky enough to get behind you he can take you out with a stone axe, and there are plenty of people out there who can empty a gun at close range and not hit a damn thing. The gun is a useful tool, yes, and I’d prefer to have one as opposed to not having one, but it’ll never be a replacement for being able to keep your cool in a nasty situation and to be able to use the situation to your best advantage.

cb

"...someone who is a smooth operator will be able to take out an AK wielding idiot with a pen."

But even someone who's able to do it with a pen will prefer a gun over a pen - unless he's an actor who has to look cool in a movie with a silly script.

Oh, and I yet have to see a pen with an effective range of more than one yard.

Actually he got his ticket punched by an armed security guard. Who presumably was not only range-qualified but also underwent periodic re-training.

I have no problem with the 2d Amendment, I myself own a handgun, but since I haven't been to the range since I left active duty, God help anyone who thinks I would actually be of some use in a firefight.

Shay, the media has been desperately trying to morph that armed citizen into a "security guard". First, I read that she was a congregation member, then a "volunteer security guard", and lately, an "armed security officer"...Odin forbid a mere peasant should stop a bloodbath....

There is a strong desire by many to make this woman out to be just some woman with a gun. The facts are otherwise. She has experience and training that 99% of all CHL holders will never have. Saying that doesn't make me anti CHL. I have one myself. However, I refuse to deny the facts here. Certainly a CHL holder made the kill here. Her past can not be ignored. Nor can it be dismissed as a contributing factor in her reaction to the situation. To do so would be just as disingenuous as the press which chooses to downplay the fact that a CHL holder saved the day.

"1.Mindset
2.Skills
3.Hardware"

"The gun is a useful tool, yes, and I’d prefer to have one as opposed to not having one, but it’ll never be a replacement for being able to keep your cool in a nasty situation and to be able to use the situation to your best advantage. "

The whole point is that a gun (factor 3) can seriously mitigate the previous two factors. Yes, if you are a crazy ninja (heavy in factors 1 and 2), you can use your preternatural focus and training to disarm the opponent with whatever is at hand. If you are a mere mortal who works analyzing charts in Excel for the better part of the week, you are really going to want that hardware to make up for the fact you won't be flinging your makeup compact into his larynx any time soon.
That isn't to say factors 1 and 2 are not needed; plenty of people stare blankly instead of drawing, or panic and empty a magazine to no avail. However, while simply owning a gun and carrying it around doesn't solve the problem, it goes a lot farther to mitigate a lack of the other factors than a comparable investment in either or both of those.

To put it another way, I can buy a gun, take some classes and practice on the range a few times a month, and be fairly well prepared if someone comes into my church and starts unloading into the crowd. That is a reasonable investment for most folks, and is easily surpassed if desired.
Alternately, if I eschew the fire arm, I am left with relying on strength, speed, and whatever skills and mindset I can come up with. I highly suspect the amount of ninja training one would have to engage in to keep on par with the above fellow with a gun is well beyond what 99% of the population is willing to undergo.

Wehrkind,

This is the point I am subtly disagreeing with

“I've said it before, but it bears repeating: the only thing that will stop an armed attacker on the spot is a person with a gun of their own”

I think it’s placing a bit too much emphasis on the gun, and I very much doubt that Marko would disagree with the idea that mindset and training will trump hardware. I am also not talking about super ninja skill unattainable by normal human beings. It seems you’re attempting to create a false dichotomy so you may dismiss skill acquisition.

In general I think there is a bit too much emphasis on hardware in the “RKBA community” and that’s what I want to address, I don’t think you need to spend every waking minute training but you’d be better off practicing your draw (exactly in the same clothes set-up as you’d have normally) and getting that draw silky smooth than going to the range popping off rounds. The next step is to be able to draw the gun while someone engaging is you. If you really want to get tactical I’d recommend spending time people watching: people behave differently when they’re casing out a joint as opposed to when they’re just stopping in for a Coke, recognizing those differences, as well as the differences in someone’s movement when they carrying, and it doesn’t take vast effort above what we do now every day.

Let’s face it, going to the range and blasting away is a helluva lot of fun, and it’s very tempting to think that it makes us tougher than we actually are, but the things that most enhance our safety are not nearly as fun or glamorous to do.

The main point is that I hope no one here, even to a small extent, falls into the trap of overestimating the value of a tool, it’s only the user that makes them dangerous.

"She has experience and training that 99% of all CHL holders will never have."

Not necessarily, or even likely. I've been through the police academy in CA, which has some of the most intense training requirements of any state. The training I obtained on my own was far more advanced than that offered to my local law enforcement officers. Your average citizen with a gun is far superior, in my experience, to your average police officer. Unless one really likes guns, most officers qualify yearly, and leave the gun in its holster the rest of the year.
I strongly object to the widely held belief that police officers or former police officers are some sort of highly trained ninja with special skills unobtainable by the general public.
Fact is, she was a parishioner with a gun. She had skills. Whether those skills were obtained as a police officer or not, we don't know. It might have just as easily been a garbage collector or a graphic artist who stopped the shooter. The point is, she was an ordinary woman, who had a gun in church, where many are not allowed to carry.

"She has training and experience that 99% of CHL holders will never have." Because we're the only ones perfeshinnul enuf.....

Piffle.

I shoot IDPA once a month. There is a cop there that brings his duty weapon (good for him- at least he's tryin'!)and that man couldn't hit a bull in the a$$ with a bass fiddle. He won't take any pointers and has never heard of "The Modern Technique." Just because someone wears or has worn a badge doesn't mean they can shoot.

Prices like those at LL Bean are exactly why I like to do my shopping at the local thrift store.

We have a very nice thrift store here that seems to get the majority of its donations from stores (tags still attached) or from the high-end areas in our neck of the woods. I consistently find Columbia, LL Bean, Eddie Bauer, Nike, etc. in there at very reasonable prices. I bought a nice new Columbia winter jacket for $12. I even found an Arc'Teryx sweater for $6.

I just don't believe in blowing tongs of money on clothing if I can get it for 1/10th or less of what it costs at the store. Plus, I make some nice vintage finds, too.

It seems she may not have fired the killing shot, as reports indicate he finished himself off. Don't yet know how many of her shots hit, but one factor in her apparent lack of precision shooting was her 3 day fast!
Once again, she illustrates you will fight as you are trained. As a former cop, she still followed poor procedure of verbally challenging the BG WHILE HE WAS SHOOTING!
She seems to have continued the verbal routine while shooting at him. I would think this might not be conducive to good shooting results.

My after-action critique aside, I have nothing but admiration for her determination to stop the incoming BG even as he was shooting his way through the vestibule. Takes major stones to tackle a shooter head-on. She waded through the crowd running from him, so she could reach him before he got into the open areas. Major kudos.
Might point Oleg toward her, as she is also attractive.

If anyone is actually interested in looking at the facts instead of trying to champion nonsense ideas such as a) she had no special training or that b) since most cops don't have train as much as some CHLers, all CHLers are better than all cops. (I'm not even sure how that one parses, but people continually mouth the logical precursor to it.)

Face it. There were other armed volunteer guards on scene who froze. Look up the sheer number of hours she has described having in training both as a LEO and as a private citizen. Like it or not, she was not the average CHLer.

I'd like this to be a woman who took one five hour class and slipped a Keltec into her purse as much as any of you, but trying to play semantic games just to jockey into a better position for future arguments is really silly. I expect that from students who haven't taken basic reasoning 101 yet, not people who will be representing me on the RKBA field.

PS to Marko, I see that after your diatribe against 'fudds' that you have indeed done as I suggested and left Tennessee for New England, where snootier attitudes are probably more welcome. I wish you luck and new, fudd-hating friends.

They, too, rely on the gun to protect themselves from harm--they just feel all high and mighty because they outsource the task.


Heh. That's the best summary of the viewpoint I've heard yet.

There's a reason LL Bean costs four times as much as a sweatshop product: They guarantee it forever. That kind of warranty is only possible if the workmanship and quality of materials is top-notch, which is not something that Wal-Mart is interested in supplying.

Buy cheap; buy twice.

Of course the outsourcing idea scales to hunting as well. My stock response to people asking how I can shoot a poor defenceless Bambi is to invite them to come with me on a tour of the local abattoir -- no takers yet...

Let me tell you, there are many cases here in the USA where lawfully armed citizens use firearms to protect themselves or others. I have been a police officer for 15 years in large metropolitan area and I have seen it 1st hand many times. The media refuses to report it, most of the time. It does not fit their world view. A private citizen who is lawfully armed and prepared to defend themselves represents the highest form of freedom. Here in the USA most states issue concealed firearms licenses and are required to give cause if they will not issue one to the applicant. The states that restrict private ownership of firearms generally have the highest levels of gun related crime. I'll let you draw you own conclusion. I hope you can win you rights back someday. Oh and as far as training goes, I know many citizens that are much more proficient and safe than you average Police Officer. It's all about individual responsibility. If you choose to carry, you have an obligation to be safe and competent.