de-christianized?
One of the folks commenting on my blog post about the current discontent in France said something that I'd like to address in a separate post. He claimed that Europeans were de-Christianized.
In reality, that's about the opposite of the true situation. You see, Europe is overwhelmingly Christian, at least on paper. Most European countries have something the US lacks (and that many evangelicals would love to see), namely an establishment of Christianity as the official state religion, codified into law.
Take Germany as an example. In Germany, you're sorted into Catholic or Protestant (Lutheran), depending on the professed faith of your parents (who are either Catholic or Lutheran depending on the faith of their parents, and so on.) The state takes "church tax" out of your paycheck, which goes to the church of your denomination directly. You can opt out of church tax by leaving the church altogether, but that requires some paperwork and an official declaration, so it's a bit of a hassle.
Most Germans are what I call "socially religious". Church membership is impressed upon you from birth, church taxes are withheld automatically, and most Germans don't think church to be a big deal. They merely congregate there whenever there's an official family occasion, like a christening, marriage, or funeral, but on the whole, Germans (and most Europeans) stay out of church for the rest of the year. Church is more a tradition and social convention than something into which you invest active participation and thought.
As a result, Christianity is not only the dominant faith in Europe , but also a stagnating faith. Almost everyone belongs to one of the Big Two denominations on paper, but the whole thing is just something to enjoy some tradition and ritual when the family gets a new addition. You see, the clergy get paid through the church tax, and they get the same monthly check whether they hold a good sermon, a bad sermon, or no sermon at all. This stagnation of religion is despite the official status of it, and probably because of the financial support of the state for it.
Contrast this with the United States, which has no form of direct state support for religion whatsoever, and the picture is a little different. In the US, churches are competing for congregations in a free market situation, and as a result, American Christians have far more choice, and far more active religious lives, than their European "paper Christian" counterparts.
It seems like the best way to have a faith stagnate is to intertwine it with government, rely on the state as a revenue intermediary, and then have the clergy get complacent because they no longer need to attract and hold a congregation. Looks like having an officially declared "Christian nation" isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Why do you say that many evengelicals, I being one of "them", would like to see a "State supported/Mandated religion, prefferably "theirs"? The essence of this country is freedom of religious choice. Would I like to see everyone bend their knee to Christ? Yes. But not by force or Gubmint edict.
Thad
Anonymous said...
4:42 PM
Marko,
The “nominal” bit is exactly what I’m referring to: if people don’t really believe in and internalize the ideas of a faith are they truly a _________ ? I see the same social club “religious” person all the time where I live from people acting like savages Mon-Sat thinking it’s all good if they pop into church for an hour on Sunday to a Greek Orthodox Church that changed all it’s paperwork to Greek when some non-Greeks started attending services there. I certainly don’t have any respect for that type of behavior nor do I support the govt neither mandating behavior for religious reasons nor taxing the people to support religious institutions, but my post had nothing to do with that.
It seems to me Europe has something of an identity crisis going on, and their lack of willingness to effectively deal with Muslims who are eager to show their contempt for European society is at the heart of it. The current Weltanschauung is simply not cutting the mustard; perhaps if they had the religiously inspired cojones to make a value judgment about Jihadism they wouldn’t tolerate that kind of nonsense right in their backyard. What is going on right now is no different that kids in the kindergarten playground bullying others to see if they’ll put up with it, if Europe decides to put up with it we can be assured that more and nastier business will occur until Europe looks like the 3rd world crapholes the Jihadis come from.
cb
Anonymous said...
4:48 PM
Why do you say that many evengelicals, I being one of "them", would like to see a "State supported/Mandated religion, prefferably "theirs"?
Because even if you don't feel that way, it does seem to be the prevailing attitude among evangelical Christians in the United States. I've heard it said over and over and over, by evangelical Christians.
Don Gwinn said...
9:35 PM
Why would it suprise anyone that Religion would be any different than anything else? Anything that can be done, will be done badly when done by Gubmint.
jimbob86 said...
10:15 PM
Strange though it seems, the original Baptists were some of the most extreme supporters of the seperation between church and state. Several went so far as to suggest that the government NOT observe sunday as a day of rest
Feanaro said...
10:33 PM
In Germany, there is a trend towards American-style churches, presumably funded entirely by donations. My dad made me attend a few services of his church. Qualitatively much better than a Catholic service, I must admit.
Two observations:
1) The free market prevails.
2) Reason doesn't.
When my father was a Catholic, he was what Marko so succinctly desribes as "socially religious".
Now that he's a Baptist, he quotes bible passages and tells me I'm going to hell. Charming.
ibex said...
11:57 AM
Due'd,
What about them foreigner-type nations that also have intimate interleaving twixt religion and government? Many seem to be mutually stimulating, supporting, and growing at what many consider an alarming rate. Maybe, the context of culture and nation (peoples) should be considered a factor in that causal relationship twixt grabbers of souls and drachmas.
Any-Non-e-Muss
Any-Non-e-Muss said...
5:39 PM