the munchkin wrangler.

I don't normally advocate breaking the law. However, when the law robs citizens of the only effective means of self defense against gun-wielding criminals, then gun carrying citizens become criminals in desperation.
I was immensely relieved when my state finally allowed concealed carry. I got my CHL and haven't broken the law since.
I remember the tragedy in Killeen,TX back in the '90's. A rampage killer drove his car into a Luby's cafeteria at lunchtime. Ironically, there was a group of LEO's lunching there. I don't recall if they were DPS or THP, but they were State LEO of some stripe, and for some unknown reason they had all locked their sidearms in their cars for the lunch break.
This nutjob killed close to 20 people and wounded many more b/c nobody was armed! How much lower would the death toll have been if just one person had open fire from an overturned table on Mr. Crazy?
I wish the Gun Grabbers could answer questions like this. Or better yet, put them in a VR game scenario like this and see what they do.
HollyB

Dude. THIS WAS A SCHOOL. 16-19 year olds. If you think giving a bunch of 16-19 year olds guns is a good idea, you need to wake up and smell the coffee. Even if there was someone carrying, they would have had a pistol. This nut had a rifle. My money's on the rifle, every time.

The chances that a person carrying a concealed gun would be within, say, 15 yards of this guy and actually had a chance to shoot him are ridiculously small. Seems to me you are using a tragedy to further your political agenda. The truth is, allowing people to carry a gun on campus would not have prevented this. Nor would increased gun control. It's just a crazy, random tragedy.

Ron,

I don't have a "political agenda", unless "leave me the hell alone" counts as one these days.

I wasn't arguing that "giving a bunch of 16-19 year olds guns" would have prevented this shooting. (I don't advocate giving *anyone* a gun. Let those who want one buy their own, if they wish.) I was arguing that the oh-so-enlightened Canadian gun control laws, and the school's "no guns" policy *didn't* prevent this shooting. Furthermore, they were counterproductive in that they guaranteed the bad guy a campus full of unarmed people. Remember, a "no weapons" policy extends to the teachers just as well as the students, so the adult faculty is prohibited from defending themselves or their charges.

As for the "rifle vs. handgun" thing, I have two points to make in response:

1. A rifle beats a pistol most of the time, but a pistol beats a prayer or a cell phone all the time.

2. I bet you dollars to donuts that the responding cops (who were already on campus on an unrelated matter) shot the bad guy with pistols.

Great post. Common sense, really. Anybody who would accuse you of unfairly furthering a political agenda is just getting defensive that his own heart-felt, brainless politics are somehow indicted by the nature of reality.

Fair enough. The political agenda line was a bit much, I guess.

What I am saying, though, is this: Even if people had been allowed to carry guns on campus, even if there had been a SWAT team two blocks away, no one could have prevented this. The idea that someone would have been there, in the right place at the right time, with a gun, is a fantasy. There is no predicting this kind of thing. An armed populace will not prevent this kind of mass murder. It might prevent robberies and muggings, I won't argue that. But this kind of random event? No way.
I haven't read how long it took for the whole thing to go down. But with a rifle, in that kind of environment, he probably did all the damage he did in a matter of minutes.

The biggest thing I take issue with, though, is the idea that idiot Canadian gun control laws *didn't* prevent this massacre. Seems like there are plenty of American mass murders to look at, too. And you know what? They were all completely random. More or less gun control laws would have precisely zero effect on events of this type.

Oh yeah. The cops have the advantage of numbers and training. And bulletproof vests.

Hey.

On a more conciliatory note, I'm all for concealed carry permits. Just fine with me. What I am saying, though, is that this argument for them is specious.

Gunning down a potential mass murderer with your .32 is a nice idea, but it doesn't reflect reality. In that kind of stressful environment, you'd have to be within 15 yards to hit the guy. Maybe you can hit the X every time on the range. I guarantee it'll be different when there's a rifle pointed at you.

And titling your post after the Canadian national anthem probably hit a little patriotic nerve.

Ron,
following your logic I shouldn't care to learn CPR, because my knowledge in how to keep a heart pumping will not keep a single heart from stopping to work, right?

I shouldn't care to learn how to use a fire extinguisher or how to change a tire either. Because my ability to do something about something will not affect the probability that that something happens.

But it's not about preventing the shit from hitting the fan, it's about being able to switch off the fan to prevent even more shit from being spread.

Why do they favour gun control? I think it's that they have a skewed idea of human nature. They think crooks are common, when they aren't. If they took the more accurate view that crooks are so rare as to be almost freaks of nature, then an armed public, even armed students, would look like a sensible idea.

So perhaps the best path to gun rights is to spread the message "most people are good and can be trusted". And, conversely, to speak up and counter cynicism when you hear it.

Ron B: According to http://www.gunfacts.info/, The death rate from mass shootings drops up to 91%, and the injury rate drops by 80% after CCW laws are passed. It won't help every time, but 9 out of 10 lives saved is worth something.

Better a dead lion than a live ... whatever the mammalian antiothis of lion is.

Even better - a live human with a few spent brass and a lot fewer dead, wounded and generally inconvenienced. Heck, I wouldn't even complain about the paperwork.

T. Stahl,

And by following your logic I should build a fallout shelter underneath my backyard in case of thermonuclear war. And bury all my savings in the backyard, in case the stock market crashes. And move my wife and family to a ranch in Montana where they can't be attacked by a madman wielding a gun.

I can be ridiculous too!

I am anti-gun control. I believe people should be free to do whatever they want without infringing on others. But that goes both ways. I do not judge people that choose not to carry a gun "just in case".

A lot of anti-gun control people make the argument that they should be free to carry a gun, in a free society. Fine. But then they take it too far. You seem to think these poor people were idiots for not carrying a gun around all the time, just in case.

Just because you choose to carry a gun, doesn't mean others are stupid for not carrying one. They might have other priorities.

From the AP story:

Prime Minister Stephen Harper said it was too early to begin questioning how tougher gun control laws might have averted Wednesday’s rampage, but that current laws clearly did not work. “The laws we have didn’t prevent this tragedy, which is why our government will be in the future — because of this incident and many others — looking to make our laws more effective,” Harper said.

Canadian laws prohibit the possession of unregistered handguns, and the rules for ownership of registered guns are stringent. Many politicians and police contend illegal guns flowing across the U.S.-Canada border are behind a recent spike in firearm violence.

Canada's new strict gun laws aren't working. Solution? Stricter gun laws.

Just don't blame the suicidal, alcoholic guy who loved to play "Super Columbine Massacre."

Another blogger talking out of his ass. Ho hum.

If only I had a dime for every time I read a blogger posting about something he knows so very little about.

For starters, this was a CEGEP - *NOT* a college. In Quebec, you go to highschool up to grade 11, and then you attend CEGEP for 2 years, and then university for 3 years, to get an undergraduate degree.

My daughter goes to Dawson, and narrowly escaped being hit. Thank God.

Being a libertairan type of guy, I fully support the right of ADULTS to own guns. But these are children. Hormone-crazed, confused, unstable, fantasy-living, substance-abusing, emotionally charged ***KIDS***. These are the last people you'd ever want to give guns to. If more of these kids had guns, the rate of suicide and homocide would go through the roof.

And try learnign a f'n thing about Canada before showing off your ignorance. I'm so tired of Americans (for whatever cause - left or right) thinkign they know what Canada is about. You don't. Inform yourself, or STFU.

"Another blogger talking out of his ass. Ho hum.

...If more of these kids had guns, the rate of suicide and homocide would go through the roof."

Another anonymous whiner who can't spell "homicide". Ho hum.

I know plenty of eighteen and nineteen year-olds I trust to carry a gun around me.

Hell, the military's full of them.

Sorry Ron, you sound a bit fatalistic. You say that even a SWAT team nearby would not have prevented this. Yes, that's true, but an instant bullet to the head of the bad guy would have greatly reduced the harm he was able to do.

Canadian anonymous,
aren't there any teachers at Canadian schools? Or are they not trustworthy children, too?

Ron;

You wrote: "The chances that a person carrying a concealed gun would be within, say, 15 yards of this guy and actually had a chance to shoot him are ridiculously small". And, "In that kind of stressful environment, you'd have to be within 15 yards to hit the guy. Maybe you can hit the X every time on the range. I guarantee it'll be different when there's a rifle pointed at you." And, "Even if people had been allowed to carry guns on campus, even if there had been a SWAT team two blocks away, no one could have prevented this. The idea that someone would have been there, in the right place at the right time, with a gun, is a fantasy."

I have attended some of the top combat shooting schools in the US and am an NRA Personal Defense instructor. I practice combat shooting nearly daily. I also play a good bit of paintball and airsoft, doing quite well against younger, faster players. During police qualification shooting a few years back, I beat one of the state's top law enforcement shooters in both time and score. Because success in armed encounters depends so much on motivation, skill, and chance, I don't feel I have the expertise to make claims like yours. You must be someone very special. What is the source of your expertise?

Marko,
I would point Rob to the incidents in Pearl Mississippi, where Assistant Principal Joel Myrick retrieved his .45 from his truck and held Luke Woodham at bay for the police, preventing him from reaching his nect intended victims at a mall. Lord knows how many of the poor victims would not have been shot had Myrick been allowed to have his sidearm on his person, rather than in his vehicle. (Which was apparently illegal as well and the damned gun grabbers have tried to demonize him for it!)
Furthermore, the Canadian shooting took place at a college, not a highschool. 16-19 year olds indeed!

iq,

Well, nothing compared to you.

Can I weasel out by saying I was irate due to my nationalistic pride? Perhaps my reason was overcome by my patriotism. And by the ignorance of the way things actually work in Canada.

Marko, your post was well-written, and you make some valid points. You admit that the policy to have a rapid police response is a good one. Yet in the same post, you disparage Canadian police who saved lives, and mock the values of people who have suffered a terrible tragedy.

I'm out.

/Well-played

Well ... despite my best intentions, I guess I'll post a follow up to Marko's excellent post. I do believe we'll very well served with our bloggers from TN.

I would like to correct some of the statements and perhaps also to offer an opinion. (That's always a dangerous course on an American blog.)

Firstly, did any of you watch the taped interviews with some of the students? As an anonymous poster said, these were kids. They were not serving in the armed forces of either of our countries. In the US, most would be juniors or seniors in your high schools. 15, 16 ands 17 year old students are quite different from 17, 18 and 19 year olds who have had military training and/or experience.

If the worst that can be said about some one's post is that he mispelled a word, then that's precious little to criticize. To someone that anally retentive, FOAD. That comment did you no glory, Tam.

CEGEPs aren't colleges in the usual American tradition of the word. They're not even junior colleges. As I said in another comment, they're university preparation colleges. Quebec recognizes that 11 years of elementary and secondary education is not sufficient ... for maturity, for life making decision making, etc.

It was heartening to know that the two first MUC police ... who were already on the scene ... responded immediately and forcefully. However, as you should all know, the shooter followed the profile and killed himself.

There is a profile. It's been published and discussed on news channels and TV news magazines. None of this comes out of nowhere and the results are invariably tragic. It doesn't matter whether it's the US, Canada, Australia or any other country.

Laws will never protect us. As Colonel Cooper said, only you and protect you.

Finally, I'm tired of the maligning we Canadians receive from Americans. Our troops are fighting as effectively in Afghanistan as the Americans, Brits and Dutch. At least, we're better when it comes to friendly fire. (That's twice now that USAF pilots have killed Canadian troops. I thought the US had cleared the "speed" freaks out of the cockpits. It sure makes it easier to defend our presence there to the anti-Americans when we get killed by your flyboys.)

I offer my prayers for the soul of that young lady who was shot nine times. I offer prayers to those who were wounded, to their families and to the others distraught and disturbed by what should not have happened.

But ... heed Colonel Cooper's warning.

Regards,
George

For what it's worth ...

http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/Hundreds+mourn+Dawson+shooting+victim+at+funeral/National/ContentPosting.aspx?isfa=1&newsitemid=CTVNews%2f20060918%2fmontreal_dawson_060919&feedname=CTV-NATIONAL_V2&show=False&number=0&showbyline=True&subtitle=&detect=&abc=abc

Regards,
George